gyzym: (Rainbow balloons!)
[personal profile] gyzym
Right, so, before I say anything here, I'd like to make the following disclaimer: this is not about wank, and I'm going to be heartbroken if it becomes wank anyway. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, I'm not doing the fandom politics thing, and I'm not making this post in order to single anyone out in that passive-aggressive "I'm talking about it like it's all over the place but REALLY IT IS ONE PERSON AND I HOPE THEY FEEL SHITTY ABOUT IT" way people do sometimes. There's this fantastic sixth grader that I'm lucky enough to call my baby brother; if I was interested in playing those kinds of games, I'd go with him to middle school. This is more...well. This is more like the kind of post I'd make if, while traipsing about the internet, I discovered that a large majority of fandom was using the word "green" to describe the color blue. And, as always, if I've gotten something wrong within, I encourage and welcome corrections with open arms.

Okay? Okay.

So, about a year ago, my friend [livejournal.com profile] iambickilometer made a post called Five+ Ways Being Transgender in Fandom Really Sucks, and Why I Stick With It Anyway. It is an incredible post, and everyone should read it; it's concise and clear and moving, and you will unquestionably learn from it. I know I did, when I read it last April. Iambic says a number of things within that post that are worth reading and rereading until you know them by heart, and I'm not going to discuss most of them here--he's done a far better job of saying it all than I ever could, and he speaks from a plane of experience that I've never traveled on. You should go read his words, you guys--read and reread, digest, take to heart.

There's just one thing that I'm going to say, because I've been seeing it everywhere for months and months now and I think it's just because folks don't know: that stuff that's usually called genderswap fic? Guys, it's pretty much always sexswap.

These are two definitions Iambic included in his post; he pointed out there that they are his own, because these are words that can mean different things to different people. His understanding of these terms lines up with mine, so I am using them here; I humbly second his request not to challenge these definitions unless they are unintentionally offensive.

sex: a classification of body dependent upon reproductive organs and hormones associated with reproduction and development.
gender: the way a person relates to their sex.


To put it another way: gender's about identity. It's about who you are as a person, not what body parts you do or do not have. So stories where, I don't know, Arthur from Inception wakes up in a female body, or Kono from Hawaii 5-0 wakes up in a male body? Unless you're also addressing a shift in gender identity (which, by the way, is something I personally would love to read), these are sexswap stories, not genderswap stories. It's not a question of which sounds better, or which is clearer, or even of fandom vernacular--it is, really and truly, a case of one being a misnomer, and the other being correct.

I have this life philosophy, you guys, about taking in as much as you can, about viewing every situation you find yourself in as a potential learning experience. When I got into fandom originally, I thought it was going to be a place to stretch my writing muscles, a place to teach myself to write by writing. Instead, I discovered more than I ever thought I'd know about other people's histories, cultures, identities and life experiences. I'm a cisgendered, bisexual Jewish girl from a city on the edge of a once-burnt river; I don't know really know shit about shit, and I don't claim to know. But I know more than I would have, is the thing, and it's because people like Iambic have taken the time and energy and inherent risk to tell me.

And I say all this to make the following point: this post is not about shame. It's not about making you feel bad about stuff you've written or thought about writing; you're not going to find me in your comments, typing in RAGECAPS and making angry faces. I'm not interested in policing you or pushing you or making choices for you--that's not who I am, and it's not what I'm about. Rather, this post is about awareness. It's about broadening horizons, and learning something you maybe didn't know before. It's about the moment I had, reading Iambic's post last April and realizing I'd had some things wrong; it's about sharing that moment with you guys, both for the sake respecting the experience of others and for the sake of accuracy, for the sake of our own integrity as writers and readers and artists.

In conclusion: we're a community of fans, and whether they've been scripted and acted or inked and bound, we know better than anyone that words have power and weight and meaning. So let's use them correctly, yeah? Let's say what we mean to say. ♥
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Date: 2011-03-15 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hermette.livejournal.com
Thank you for this, bb. ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 12:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thanks for reading, love :D

Date: 2011-03-15 12:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] earth-is-a-star.livejournal.com
You are always both wonderfully respectful and informative. Thank you <3.

Date: 2011-03-15 12:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you for taking the time to read, bb. ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 12:42 am (UTC)
ext_3225: (Default)
From: [identity profile] stele3.insanejournal.com (from livejournal.com)
Excellent points, and thank you for making them. Thank you also for the link, I'll check that out ASAP.

I also get a little disquieted when I see so many people referring to fandom as a "female space" or automatically using "she/her" pronouns when speaking about a fan they don't know. While I do love--LOVE--the presence of a community in which like-minded women can communicate openly with each other about their interests, I don't want that to turn into an exclusionary zone or to make transgender fans feel uncomfortable by making assumptions about their gender.

That's why zie and other non-gendered pronouns rock! I always try to use those until I've ascertained someone's gender for sure.

Date: 2011-03-15 12:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Iambic makes some excellent points about pronoun use within fic; in my own interpersonal fandom interactions, I try to make it a point to ascertain which pronoun whoever I'm talking to feels most comfortable with. Thank you so much for bringing that up here, as it's definitely one of those things I think we should all be aware of, in all our interactions--both within and without fandom. ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 12:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sorrynotsorry.livejournal.com
While I agree with this reasoning wholeheartedly, I do wonder if the term did come from a general discomfort with using the word "sex" to begin with. It's amazing how often people use "gender" when they really mean "sex", likely because the term is just so loaded.

Date: 2011-03-15 12:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Oh, I have no question that that's at least in part where the term is derived from, and of course--not that you don't know this about me anyway, lol--I'd never suggest that anyone did it purposefully to trod upon anyone or anything. It's just one of those things that, for whatever reason, has become commonplace even though it's not actually correct :D

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From: [identity profile] sorrynotsorry.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-03-15 12:54 am (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 2011-03-15 12:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merely-anger.livejournal.com
Wow. I love the way you worded this and now I'll definitely be checking out [livejournal.com profile] iambickilometer's post. This whole topic is never something I gave much thought to before, but after reading this I fully agree with it and hope it changes the views for others as well.

I love having my eyes opened to knew things, so thanks. :)

Date: 2011-03-15 12:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thanks for reading and considering, bb. ♥ Iambic's done a far better job of articulating all of this than I ever could, so you should definitely check out what he has to say :D

Date: 2011-03-15 12:50 am (UTC)
ext_88181: (coffee and clouds)
From: [identity profile] chaoticallyclev.livejournal.com
...What's semi-funny in that not humorous but "how did my brain not catch that?" way is that we cover this distinction in...several of my classes actually. Never really caught the goof of using "genderswap" before. So, yes, awareness is good.

Date: 2011-03-15 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
You know, that's the exact reaction I had last April--oh, hell, how did I not see that before? It's one of the dangers of a common vernacular, things that can slip by you. So I'm all about spreading the awareness :D Thanks for reading, love.

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From: [identity profile] elainasaunt.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-03-15 04:57 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-03-15 12:53 am (UTC)
ext_63688: (Default)
From: [identity profile] taurenova.livejournal.com
I remember reading that post last year and finding it brilliantly written and full of great points well made.

Thank you for bring up this point again. It's something I think of every now and then when I see the word genderswap thrown around. I hope people will read this and read [livejournal.com profile] iambickilometer's post and raise their awareness some.

(And if gets people think about the divide between the two concepts then even better - it's an important thing to think about, particularly on the internet.)

Date: 2011-03-15 12:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you for taking the time to read and consider, bb :D

Date: 2011-03-15 12:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sheafrotherdon.livejournal.com
Thank you for this, love. I just went and changed out my genderswitch tag for sex_switch, because you're totally right, and I'm glad for the kick in the pants.

Date: 2011-03-15 12:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you, for taking the time to read and edit accordingly, I can't tell you how happy that makes me ♥

(In other news, this story I'm writing you has gotten OUT OF CONTROL, I apologize profusely :D)

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Date: 2011-03-15 12:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winslow-arizona.livejournal.com
I always get irritated when people use "gender" in place of "sex," because they're not the same thing. Although I can understand if someone is uncomfortable saying the word 'sex' - I used to be, myself, but that was a long time ago - it's still wrong.
Edited Date: 2011-03-15 12:57 am (UTC)

Date: 2011-03-15 12:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
It is! But a lot of people don't know that; I'm all about taking the opportunities to learn and teach when they crop up, you know? Thanks so much for reading ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 12:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ships-harry.livejournal.com
This post is a good post! And I have made *exactly* that error in using "genderswap" incorrectly, despite having had many a conversation about how gender and sex are not at all the same thing.

Will try to be more aware of this, and I appreciate that you brought it up.

Date: 2011-03-15 01:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thanks so much for taking the time to read and think on it, love ♥ I made that error too, back before I read Iambic's post last year; awareness, it is a fabulous thing.

Date: 2011-03-15 12:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arineat.livejournal.com
I think it's an important distinction to make and I really applaud you for making this post despite potential wank that could arise from it.

Hell, I didn't even know what cisgender meant until I read this. YAY FOR LEARNING SOMETHING NEW! I don't even know what gender I am. Half the time I feel like a girl and half the time I feel like a guy trapped in a girl's body. Weird, huh? Bisexual woman, married with a kid and not completely sure of my gender. I try not to label it either way. I just kind of...exist. :P

Date: 2011-03-15 01:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
*Fellow bisexual fistbump*

Hooray for learning, bb! And hooray for existing and identifying in whatever way feels best for you ♥

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From: [identity profile] arineat.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-03-15 01:08 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-03-15 01:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kubis.livejournal.com
Thank you for that. I was aware of the sex/gender difference, but somehow... never connected it to the genderswap. Now I'll probably have this little snap of awareness everytime I'll see that word. :)

And thanks for the link, I'll read it after I get some sleep.

Edited because it's 2am and I can't spell well in English anymore, apparently.
Edited Date: 2011-03-15 01:04 am (UTC)

Date: 2011-03-15 01:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
You know, before it was brought to my attention, I never connected it either, despite very real awareness of the difference between gender and sex. I'm just happy to spread the awareness ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 01:03 am (UTC)
ext_559841: suspended on silver wings~ (THard Smiley)
From: [identity profile] shiroi-ten.livejournal.com
This is yet another reason why I love this fandom. ♥ Thank you for the amazing, informative, eloquent post and link.

Date: 2011-03-15 01:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you, darling, for taking the time to read and consider ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 01:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dogeared.livejournal.com
This is so so smart—thank you!!

Date: 2011-03-15 01:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you, bb, for taking the time to read ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 01:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mecurtin.livejournal.com
Hmm, I never noticed that before. I wonder what a true genderswap story, in your sense, would *look* like? "John Sheppard touches the wacky Ancient device and all of a sudden ...." what? He feels like he's really a woman? He changes the way he wants to present himself, e.g. he becomes traditional-manly masculine?

I'm not sure that the term "genderswap" is all that bad, because I'm not sure that "sexswap" actually has a referrent. The distinction between "sex" and "gender" (when referring to humans) is quite recent and still a bit muddy, not least because of the contortions people will go to, to avoid saying "sex".

Date: 2011-03-15 01:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
I think if you really wanted to explore a genderswap story in the true sense of the word--and again, I am not and do not claim to be an expert on these kinds of things, so I could be entirely wrong--you would, yes, have to address the idea that Character X comes to feel (or is made to feel, through whatever plot device) a disconnect between the body they're in and the gender they identify with. And I can't stress enough how much that's not about presentation of self so much as about that internal struggle--Character X could be the most traditionally "masculine" character ever in the history of time, but still identify, gender-wise, as female.

And I am, of course, aware that the distinction between gender and sex can be a muddy one--thus the disclaimer around the definitions included, and, to a certain degree, thus the point of the post. The distinction is being made at least in part because it's needed for folks whose gender doesn't align with their sex; in making that distinction clearer, the experience and explanations of feeling that divide can be made easier on those dealing with it.

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From: [identity profile] mecurtin.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-03-16 02:29 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-03-15 01:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] misspamela.livejournal.com
HUH. You know, I've gone over the SEX IS NOT GENDER thing with many, many people, but the issue with "genderswap" never occurred to me! I don't read or write it (not my thang, in general) so I haven't given it too much thought, but huh. Good to know.

Date: 2011-03-15 01:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Something to think about, definitely ♥ Thanks for reading, bb!

Date: 2011-03-15 01:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nianeyna.livejournal.com
...oh, wow. DUH. I can't believe I never thought of that before! BRB CHANGING TAGS. :)

Date: 2011-03-15 01:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
♥! Thanks so much for taking the time to read and edit, bb, that makes me so happy, I can't even tell you.

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From: [identity profile] nianeyna.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-03-15 01:36 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-03-15 01:23 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Noted, thank you!

(If I can bother you to clarify something - if it's an AU where a male character was born physically female and identifies as such, that's genderbend, right? Since it's a change of identity?

And I noticed your friend said he didn't like that kind of fic, but I wasn't sure if it was a personal taste thing or something that he thought shouldn't exist on principle. Do you happen to know?)

Date: 2011-03-15 01:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
You know what, I am pretty sure you're correct on the genderbend thing, but I'm not positive, and I'd hate to get it wrong. I'll ask Iambic on both counts next I talk to him and get back to you, yeah?

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From: [identity profile] anatsuno.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-03-15 01:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-03-15 01:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nianeyna.livejournal.com
Oh, also! Reading the comments it seems many people had a reaction similar to mine, ie wow that is so obvious why didn't I notice it before. I think it might be because we were looking at "genderswap" as a word in itself, instead of a combination of two words. Like, if these fics were being described, "so and so changes genders!" I'm pretty sure we woulda noticed something was up before this.

Date: 2011-03-15 01:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Oh, I think so too. I honestly thing it's just one of those things that has become part of the fandom vernacular to such a degree that people don't think about it at all, which is a) why I made this post and b) why I made sure to say, hey, yo, not about shame. Because I genuinely don't think at all that people are trying to, you know, say anything about gender identity by using that word--I know I certainly wasn't, back before Iambic pointed it out in that post. It's just about spreading the knowledge, you know? ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 01:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kellifer-fic.livejournal.com
I love that you can learn new things in such a supportive place. This is really constructive and thank you for taking the time to write it out.

:)

Date: 2011-03-15 01:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you for taking the time to read, bb.

Date: 2011-03-15 01:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lizzy-someone.livejournal.com
There's just one thing that I'm going to say, because I've been seeing it everywhere for months and months now and I think it's just because folks don't know: that stuff that's usually called genderswap fic? Guys, it's pretty much always sexswap.

THANK YOU.

So stories where, I don't know, Arthur from Inception wakes up as a woman, or Kono from Hawaii 5-0 wakes up as a man? Unless you're also addressing a shift in gender identity (which, by the way, is something I personally would love to read), these are sexswap stories, not genderswap stories.

Okay, so. The thing is, I'm not trans, so I'm wary of sounding like I speak for trans people. But for what it's worth, my understanding (and I welcome correction too, of course) is that it's frowned upon to describe someone as a "woman" if they in fact identify as a man, or vice versa. Like, if I hear, "Arthur from Inception wakes up as a woman," I'm going to be thinking that Arthur now identifies as female, with either female sex, in which case she's cis, or male sex, in which case she's trans -- in other words, either true genderswap, or genderswap or sexswap at once. If you wish to describe sexswap without genderswap, I believe a better way to say that would be something like, "Arthur wakes up as a trans guy."

Date: 2011-03-15 01:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
You are totally, totally right, that is so my bad, thank you. Editing so it says "Arthur wakes up in a female body" and "Kono wakes up in a male body," as I'm trying to establish a blank template for those who might want to explore both sexswap and genderswap. ♥

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Date: 2011-03-15 02:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] poto-heart.livejournal.com
Pffft I was intending on being too shy to comment on your journal for like, a few more months at least, but you just have to be so awesome all the time, DON'T YOU.

Anyways, as a trans* person who's not involved enough in fandom to start these kinds of discussions or really participate in them, but involved enough for it to matter to me, thank you :D

Date: 2011-03-15 02:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Aww, bb, thank you so much for commenting :D You never need to feel shy around me, I AM NOT SCARY, I PROMISE. Crazy, but not scary ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 02:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] allheadybooks.livejournal.com
Thanks for this! I love that post, and shared it with my non-fannish genderqueer partner a while back. I tend to use the term 'genderfuck' because it feels broader and more useful: i.e., a fic in which some action is taken that fucks with, or queers, the gender assumptions of the original piece.

Date: 2011-03-15 03:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
I love the term "genderfuck," just in general. I also, I have to say, am mad about your icon--Good Omens for the motherfucking win.

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From: [identity profile] allheadybooks.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-03-15 09:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-03-15 02:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mad-musing.livejournal.com
Hmm, this is wonderful.

I, too, thought "ho crap! How did I miss that?!" I've studied the difference between gender and sex in classes before and it's an issue that I feel very strongly about but the disparity between the term "genderswap" and what fandom was using it to refer to just didn't register at first.

See, I grew up in a really conservative Christian family that views anything outside of a heterosexual, cisgendered perspective (for lack of a better word) was wrong and sinful. That never has and never will sit right with me and I could go on and on about how it's caused me a great deal of grief and feelings of shame and isolation...but it's beside the point and I digress.

What I really wanted to say is: I am so glad to have found a community -even one that's just on the internet- of like-minded people who are so open and willing to discuss these issues and perspectives with such care and respect.

Yours and iambickilometer's posts bring up such good food for thought! Thanks for (re)opening up my eyes! ♥

Date: 2011-03-15 03:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you for letting them be (re)opened, bb!

Date: 2011-03-15 02:36 am (UTC)
ext_310128: Sexual Deviant (Default)
From: [identity profile] photoclerk.livejournal.com
You're a lovely person. <3 Acceptance, love and learning are some of the best things to aim for in life.
Christ you're good with words. Thank you.

Date: 2011-03-15 03:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gyzym.livejournal.com
Thank you, bb ♥
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